Serrapeptase & NADH/NAD+ - enzymes

Anyone here tried it? :slight_smile: - no posts yet.

Serrapeptase is a proteoloytic enzyme which users say is anti-inflammatory with hardly any/no side effects.
It’s mainly called Serratiopeptidase (Serratia E-15 protease, also known as serralysin, serratiapeptase, serratia peptidase, serratio peptidase, or serrapeptidase as well as serrapeptase as written).
Fibro is occasionally listed. Altho we of course don’t know if it really has something inflammatory or autoimmune.
Evidence-based medicine seems to believe there are not enough trials to warrant interest.
But a look on pubmed shows a negative review of this kind from 2013, however 3 more positive ones from 2017 2x and 2020.
The role of serratiopeptidase in the resolution of inflammation - PubMed The role of serratiopeptidase in the resolution of inflammation, Asian J Pharm Sci. 2017 May
Serratiopeptidase: Insights into the therapeutic applications - PubMed Serratiopeptidase: a systematic review of the existing evidence. Int J Surg. 2013;11(3):209-17
Analytical techniques for serratiopeptidase: A review - PubMed Analytical techniques for serratiopeptidase: A review J Pharm Anal. 2017 Aug;7(4):203-207
So I am inclined to try it one day, after GABA is helping so well at the moment.
And the feverish-feeling I still get makes me feel there is some hidden inflammation or something autoimmune going on in my body unbeknownst to man. ;o)
3 trusted online pharmacies offer it here, not that cheap tho: 40c per 500mg pill.
Oh, wait a minute: Serrapeptase Benefits, How to Use and Side Effects - Dr. Axe
serrapeptase: digestive upset, skin inflammation, infections or rash, can lead to muscle aches and joint pain, risk for pneumonia, infections, bleeding and bruising.

•	Digestive upset, including nausea
•	Skin inflammation and spreading of infections or rash (13)
•	Muscle aches and joint pain
•	Increased risk for pneumonia
•	Potentially increased risk for infections, such as bladder infection
•	Potentially increased risk for bleeding and bruising, especially when combined with drugs such as warfarin, clopidogrel and aspirin

Side effects: GI, skin, muscle pain.
10mg-60, most often 15-30, 5mg for mild symptoms.
Empty stomach, first thing, between meals, 2h from meal.

Good German link on serrapeptase

https://www.foodgroove.de/serrapeptase/ gut - schmerz, schleim, herz, spermien, Entzündungen - Arthritis, Dermatitis, Gastritis, Colitis, Gelenke, Schwellungen, verhindert Aussonderung bestimmter schmerzerzeugender Substanzen z.B. Bradykinin. Hilft bes. lokalisiert z.B. Ohren, Rachen, Nase. Schleim. Blutgerinnsel. Narben. Nattokinase ähnlich, besser gg Alzheimer.
Nicht mit ASS kombinieren.
Nüchtern, 30’-2h vor Mahlzeit, 3x Tal., in Studien meist 10g (-60). Evtll effektiver mit Zn oder Mangan.
Serrapeptase: 13 Vorteile + optimale Dosierung, Studien, Nebenwirkungen
Apotheke: 45€, I’m thinking of starting with small dose once I’ve got GABA & Co. sorted out.

Hi JayCS! I’ve never heard of this before. You amaze me with all your knowledge. Thank you!

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After I’ve ordered it (but the supplier hasn’t come over yet, after almost a week…, maybe that’s good) this is another tale of admonition.
As I’ve already written above https://draxe.com/nutrition/serrapeptase/ says dose 10-60mg, enteric coated 30’ before or 2h after eating. fx: inflammation, pain. sfx: skin, pain, incl. stomach! Also Serrapeptase: Benefits, Dosage, Dangers, and Side Effects - enteric coated, otherwise the stomach acid will destroy it…
Whilst Serrapeptase: Benefits, Side Effects, Dosage, and Interactions says take as little as possible or else with food, cos of the sfx. And taking a high amount will likely not make a difference.

I wanted now to look up how high the dose of the product I’ve ordered is and whether they are enteric coated. They are not, they are vegetable coated, = HPMC, which may not help the product get over the stomach acid. Despite having bought it over a reliable German portal for German “Apotheken” / pharmacies I’ve also just seen the ingredients say it has inulin in it, which is only true for the current product from the same manufacturer with a different label. But in the ingredient of the manufacturer it doesn’t say how much inulin and how much serrapeptase, just together 1000mg per 2 capsule serving. https://www.nutramedix.com/pub/media/Serrapeptase_white_paper.pdf.
So I’ve got a bit of stick to write around to the Apotheke, the portal and the manufacturer.
Let’s see how compliant they are…
The manufacturer’s answered that it’s always been with inulin, they’ve just changed the label, it’s just written on there very small. The amount named is 10,000 SPUs per capsule, which seems to be the lowest amount, it says here, the hightest amounts can be more than 100x that (?!): Serrapeptase: Amazing Enzyme!
Here it says how to convert it to mg if the amount per mg is named, but it isn’t. How to convert serrapeptase international units to milligrams | eHow UK
This site says take high doses, but he’s fairly healthy: https://www.ebodyfusion.com/serrapeptase-dosage
Now I’ve got it, I can see the label is different to the digital version one, and does have inulin listed on it.

NADH/NAD+ - for CFS fatigue / energy? … a few studies… Edit Sep 8th: 2 more added.

NADH is a form of nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide (NAD) with hydrogen, as opposed to NAD+, a kind of active form of vitamin B3, niacin, related to it, made from it.
It sincreases energy by increasing ATP in the mitochondria. Question is if it can work as a supplement tho.

This article from 2010 seems to imply NADH didn’t help for CFS [Nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide (NADH) in patients with chronic fatigue syndrome] - PubMed

This article describes FM, Best Supplements for Fibromyalgia: NADH to Boost Your Energy Levels | Healthy Living articles | Well Being center | SteadyHealth.com
but quotes this study from 2015, which says it works for CFS, together with CoQ10 Does Oral Coenzyme Q10 Plus NADH Supplementation Improve Fatigue and Biochemical Parameters in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome?

Verywellhealth also quotes 2 studies NADH: Benefits, Side Effects, Dosage, and Interactions

This gives an overview of a number of interventions for mitochondrial dysfunction, incl. NADH and Q10: Mitochondrial Dysfunction and Chronic Disease: Treatment With Natural Supplements

I doubt “FDA approves” is a correct terminology: https://www.prohealth.com/library/fda-approves-nadh-for-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-cfids-trials-at-georgetown-university-11236

is advertising for an NAD+ IV drip.

Some users say it helps them, some say it doesn’t or only for a short time: NADH (suppliment) | ProHealth Fibromyalgia, ME/CFS and Lyme Disease Forums

Only one article on pubmed that wd slightly support this article - but only theoretically, obviously no-one has thought enough of it to study it properly.

If not IV it seems to need to be enteric-coated and to prevent too much overstimulation & jitteriness you should start at 2,5mg, but the capsules I’ve seen start at 5mg and most are 15mg or 20mg…

Edit:
Therapeutic effects of oral NADH on the symptoms of patients with CFS, Forsythe et al. 1999: Sci-Hub | Therapeutic effects of oral NADH on the symptoms of patients with chronic fatigue syndrome. Annals of Allergy, Asthma & Immunology, 82(2), 185–191 | 10.1016/S1081-1206(10)62595-1
NAD/NADH, CoQ10, ALC (L-Carnitin) for CFS: “it is difficult to make conclusions on whether these interventions have an effect on mitochondrial function”, better studies needed. A systematic review of nutraceutical interventions for mitochondrial dysfunctions in myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome | Journal of Translational Medicine | Full Text

Taken serrapeptase for Ache (5 of 7) at 12:20: fx (:arrow_lower_right:1) & sfx (skin & stool slight) immediately & surprisingly.

Same on 4th trial after mask-talking/working, Ache from 5 down to 1 in 25’.

Dr. JayKills log book Sep 4th, "1921": From 14:20 on: After Ache went down immediately, slight skin & pain sfx almost gone, also the cotton wool feeling, different stool. 1.5h Weeding no problem!

12:15 OK, pretty high Ache of 5 of 7 now, after talking or rather listening to someone for 50’ while playing a bit of table tennis. Good time to try serrapeptase, as it might help or cause even more muscle ache. Also this Ache could be interpreted as seeming slightly “inflammatory”, altho I have no feverish-feeling.
It’s 12:20, Sep 4th (wrote Dr. Jekyll… :smirk_cat:) and I have now taken 1 capsule (it says 1-2). If that’s too much I can always open one and just use a part of it.
My first reactions at 12:30 if I listen closely, while sitting are: my Ache has stopped - very unlikely, that never happens, esp. not after only such a short time; see what happens when I get up. Slight pain in my right (not left) jaw & slight itching and pinpricks alternating on arms, legs, neck, possibly nocebo, and about the amount I’dve had if I’dve cold showered, so tolerable if it doesn’t get worse.
Getting up at 12:35: No Ache!? Hmm. But movements are slightly changed, looser, a bit stiff at the same time, but less than I’d usually have now. Scratching my neck, bit irritated there. Bit like “walking on cotton wool” or how’d’you call it, sort of soft, but at the same time something slightly stiffer in my legs. Something in my head. Never ever had this quick reactions.
12:50 Slightly itchy face and chest. Got my whole body thru, but all tolerable, since not all at the same time.
13:00 Suddenly tired in my head and my fingers (very dry), no Ache, but slight pains, slightly itchy backside,
13:05 slight left wrist pain, all others gone, slightly itchy scalp & still backside, all others gone. Ache still hasn’t returned. Still a bit cotton wool I think in my head? Itchy chest…
14:10 Nothing’s got worse, the itchiness is still tolerable, no GI (yet), the Ache is still gone, and I’m raring to do something active & see what happens.
14:35 Still researching the studies. Sudden strong stool, very light in colour. Might be normal. But my gut reacts quickly to everything.
16:45 After 1.5h of gardening/yardwork, mainly weeding, I am of course a bit tired, muscles sore and Achey, but not like I’d usually be…
17:38 Typing (fw) & resting, but not cos it’s nec. I think I’ll go to the shops a bit now.

The HPMC capsules are partly acid-protected by magnesium stearate

The capsules are not enteric-coated, they are HPMC/vegan, so I drank quite a bit (soy drink, not water), to get it quickly thru my stomach acid which 30’ before eating, like they recommend, will be pretty high. Worst case the enzyme will be destroyed by the acid and not do anything…
Going thru what it says on the capsules I’m not sure what the inulin is for, but I’ve just sorted out that the magnesium stearate slows down the dissolution. That explains the colour of the capsules and that it might get thru the acid. But surely dissolving slowly means it can’t be working yet, can only be placebo? But: Who cares!

Studies hardly mention sfx, nocebo

If I’m exchanging the Ache for slight pains and/or itches, that’s a deal, I’ll sell my body to serrapeptase… :smirk: :sunglasses:
Scanning the links I listed above, they say I may get skin or gut problems, and the Ache may get worse instead of better, muscle & joint pain. However going thru the articles, I cannot see that the studies used as proof are truly referring specifically to serrapeptase or are more than anecdotal.
draxe cites this study for skin, which is actually only one case history (direct pdf) of a man with an abscess, which was greatly exacerbated, praps due to the fibrinolytic activity of serrapeptase.
Whilst old.serrapeptase provides best information about not :wink: knowing what dose to take, it claims there are no sfx.
One of the German ones points to 2 articles, this one (also found here), which only cites 2 others, arguing to use it topically instead of via gut/orally: The first (7) isn’t linked or searchable. The 2nd (8) Topical formulations with superoxide dismutase: influence of formulation composition on physical stability and enzymatic activity - PubMed doesn’t mention anything about sfx in the abstract, it’s just also about using it topically, and trying to click on the full text doesn’t get me anywhere, so I can’t check it and this helpful one from 2017 says: “There are not many published articles on the adverse drug reactions (ADRs) to serratiopeptidase. The only information may be obtained from drug company monographs. The ADRs include allergic skin reaction that ranges from dermatitis to extreme cases of Stevens-Johnson syndrome or erythema multiforme, muscle aches and joint pains, gastric disturbances like anorexia, nausea, and abdominal upset, cough, rarely pneumonitis [65], and coagulation abnormalities. It has to be taken on an empty stomach or at least two hours after eating, and no food should be consumed for about 30 minutes after the ingestion of serratiopeptidase. The recommended dose of serratiopeptidase for specific indications, in particular, has been not mentioned anywhere; however, serratiopeptidase-based drugs commonly range from 30000 to 60000 UI/day.” - I wonder if my soy drink counts as food? 30.000 UI: UI seems to be the same as IU, international units, in this case probably SPU? The drug I very often get skin and/or gut, if it is listed in ADR lists, but not always, and I can play with the dose if it dose, ehm: does.
The other German link repeats 3 cases of pneumonia and adds that Zn or Mn may help.

Also seen that the “miracle enzyme” link above is total crap; if I could still edit it, I’d hide it more. Sorry. :flushed:

Dose 10,000 SPUs, 0,3-1% of what's recommended.

What dosage of Serrapetpase should you take?
“The Serrapeptase dosage most commonly used in scientific research has been between 10 mg and 30 mg per day, but this suggestion is useless since the enzyme strength or activity is unknown. Unlike vitamins or herbal supplements, the most effective Serrapeptase dosage depends more on the potency of the Serrapeptase enzyme rather than the amount taken.” This site says 300,000-1,000,000 SPUs, which I am taking 0,3-1% of…

Interactions: Magnesium glycinate new this morning did nothing by midday.

Whatever: I have to remember I took 2x400mg magnesium glycinate very early this morning, however had absolutely no fx, neither relaxing, nor excitatory. Only when I realized the Ache is pretty high, did I think it’s a good time to try something for pain, and I’ve only got this left on that list.

2nd try Sep 7th: Deliberately overdid table tennis (70’ fairly full power, without breaks), Ache of 5. Taking serrapeptase seemed to stop the Ache quickly, this time no sfx/nocebo, just normal sports exhaustion. My acupressurist asked for some to try.

3rd: Sep 9th 19:45, after recovering from late 50’ power-TT took over half an hour… (yes, I’m getting quite demanding…). 20:25 starting to get a bit better, but can’t really say it’s that. And it’s not waking me up more, so won’t disturb getting to sleep.
The 1st time was emotional fatigue from socializing, not physical fatigue from TT like the 2nd & 3rd time, maybe that’s what it’s better for, for me?

My colleague took 4, my acupressurist 20, let’s see if it’s OK for them too.

The 4th time was 2021-09-10 9:30 an hour of working/mask-talking, Ache after of 5. 1x10,000 serrapeptase at 10:40 hadn’t worked at all by 10:55, but by 11:10 it was pretty much down to 1. And nothing I did after (mask-talking again 20’, commuting, 70’ power table tennis) changed that. No sfx by 17:15.
However I’m pretty tired all day due to waking up with strange pains after 4:00, slight, but disturbing sleep, so I was partly dozing and had to intervene, e.g. with a 1’ cold shower. Only explanation I can find is taking serrapeptase late yesterday evening after table tennis - which didn’t help much, caused light coloured stool in the morning, and may have increased skin problems to skin-nerve kinds of problems…?

Addition 2021-09-11
Trying to understand how serrapeptase as a proteolytic enzyme works, it has become clear that it ‘lyses proteins’, i.e. splits bigger ones up into smaller ones, amino acids, which is what they do in our guts as well as apparently in our blood vessels, which helps reduce inflammation.
That now might explain why serrapeptase seems to be helping, like amino acids already do: All proteins?
This study from 2001 Therapy with proteolytic enzymes in rheumatic disorders - PubMed mentions various proteolytic enzymes changing cytokines which are at least a biomarker of FM, and are also a varied group of (small) proteins. I can’t find evidence that this also includes serrapeptase itself, however.
Similarly some proteolytic enzymes apparently help IBS, however I can’t find the same for serrapeptase.

Addition 2 2021-09-11: This site (Robert Redfern, “Good Health Club”) goes into a bit of depth regarding serrapeptase, comparing products, units, enteric-coating, BUT it’s trying to place its own products and (to do this?) has jumped to the bandwagon conclusion that FMS is (only) an autoimmune & cytokine problem for which there is nothing like enough evidence, despite Goebel’s 2021 study on mice. Next to buying loads of their nutrients their suggestions of how to eat, drink & breathe/exercise are fully OK. The nutrients most recommended for FMS/CFS don’t have much in common with what others suggest or research, like iodine, and the main products contain 77 or 43 nutrients… :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

Healthline’s article connects directly to studies, altho it’s always worth checking if they hold what articles promise.

I’ve been taking serrapeptase for a few months, NADH for quite a few weeks now.

Disappointed at not being able to repeat its initial effect, I increased Serrapeptase to 2x125000 SPU capsules 3x/d starting yesterday Nov 19th & today, making sure not to take it with meals. Still haven’t sen a difference yet. The amazing initial pain, fatigue & post exertional malaise improving reaction when first taking it hasn’t ever returned, so I’m guessing it was placebo or some good coincidence.

NADH on the other hand has been having a really positive but strange effect. First it wasn’t reliable, so I read up that it needs to be taken away from meals and acids, making it hard to co-ordinate it with all the amino acids I’m taking, but I’ve managed that and also sometimes taken 2x5mg at 11:00 or 8:00, instead of 5mg, and definitely increased its effect with all these strategies. But after quite a few brilliant days taking (as Teitelbaum and others and studies suggest) from 5-10-15 to sometimes even 20mg, I crashed. On phoenixrising I’ve now found a brilliant confirmation of what I guessed might be happening: https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/anyone-tried-nadh-for-energy.4068/page-3: “NADH is really helpful for me, but not if I take it all the time. I take 5 mg (1/2 tab) daily, but if I’m going to have a big day I double that. But I do so with caution: while I often feel really good, maybe even great, on those rare days 10 mg days, I have to be careful to not over-do activity or I’ll have a huge crash. … I’ve read other things about pulsing the dose, taking a week off every month, and I tried that for a while, but for me this 5 mg daily/10 mg for big days works best. It is sad to find something that can provoke a good day but to learn, over time, that it’s temporary. The first few times this happened I was so hopeful I’d turned a corner, started looking into travel and grad school, but neither were to be. Since then, a good day here and there is still great, and I’d be glad if this proves helpful for anyone else.” Other suggestions in the posts before that and on other sites were to use a sublingual form (not sure if it’ll work, but maybe I’ll try opening the capsules) and to make sure it’s swept down into and maybe thru the stomach quickly, away from the acid there. But that’s not really my problem, because it did work. Just I overdid it and didn’t understand how that can be, as it feels completely different to the normal FM-overdoing it. See my blog entry on Nov 20th and the days before.
Sahelian has similar suggestions, however without describing it as well: NADH supplement benefit, side effects, 5mg 10mg and 20mg tablets, fatigue. He also like others recommend the ENADA brand due to the enteric coating. Mine isn’t, but it’s working and it’s 40c per capsule instead of 60c per capsule (cheapest price, the recommended price is about double that!) Edit 2021-11-21: that’s comparing 5mg to 7.5mg capsules, so actually exactly the same price, altho enteric coated shd be more expensive. 7.5 is a bit big considering 2.5 is a lot for some due to sfx, but as I’m sometimes taking 10mg & have no sfx that shd be OK.

Today I slowly came out of the crash and felt brilliant in the evening (that’s when I/we never feel brilliant of course), exactly the same as Wednesday. So I’m pretty sure it’s not the serrapeptase working at the same time.
So what I’m aiming for with the NADH is to enjoy feeling 100% with 0 Ache, as much/long as possible, but not to use it to do more than I would otherwise, just as Carollynn suggested on phoenixrising or to use all those strategies: Trying taking it more on demand / irregularly / periodically and see which works best. Overdoing yes, but not quite as much. Praps in short tough stints, that’s usually best for my body, but then enforcing rest.